limited speed
- Thread starter passimakopoulos
- Start date
K9F
Well-known member
Running without a cat and it running like pure shit without a tune is complete rubbish. It runs no different to stock but does sound better and allows the engine to breathe easier.
Stock tune has it’s issues as many people are aware and these issues are still there without a cat but it certainly does NOT run like pure shit. I have done so for the best part of 2,000 miles. There are those that like to think what they have is the best but constantly banging on how good these tunes are and misguided hero worship of Fuel Moto and Ryan are becoming somewhat tedious now, especially with the potential of voiding warranty that many people may wish to keep intact?
***There is no doubt that the tuners do a good job and their tunes are a worthy product but it is still unclear.***
Get Fuel Moto to categorically state on either open forum that tune flashing does NOT leave a footprint on your ECU and I may start banging the same drum as others perhaps and it may allay many people’s worry about powertrain warranty flagging in regions where emissions and dealership interpretation and rules may be stricter than others?
Oh I forgot from what information is available they already misguidingly did that.
Stock tune has it’s issues as many people are aware and these issues are still there without a cat but it certainly does NOT run like pure shit. I have done so for the best part of 2,000 miles. There are those that like to think what they have is the best but constantly banging on how good these tunes are and misguided hero worship of Fuel Moto and Ryan are becoming somewhat tedious now, especially with the potential of voiding warranty that many people may wish to keep intact?
***There is no doubt that the tuners do a good job and their tunes are a worthy product but it is still unclear.***
Get Fuel Moto to categorically state on either open forum that tune flashing does NOT leave a footprint on your ECU and I may start banging the same drum as others perhaps and it may allay many people’s worry about powertrain warranty flagging in regions where emissions and dealership interpretation and rules may be stricter than others?
Oh I forgot from what information is available they already misguidingly did that.
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Yeah who needs a flat power curve. That nice dip in the middle without a cat means nothing.
I’ve tried two different cat deletes without the proper tune.
100% difference once the tune is re installed. Or the cat is re installed.
Even racefit told me I didn’t really need a tune. I rode it for one day without a tune for the pipe. And hated it.
Perhaps you just got used to it. But because I and many others know what it runs like without a tune, we know it runs like poop once compared to a tuned machine.
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I’ve tried two different cat deletes without the proper tune.
100% difference once the tune is re installed. Or the cat is re installed.
Even racefit told me I didn’t really need a tune. I rode it for one day without a tune for the pipe. And hated it.
Perhaps you just got used to it. But because I and many others know what it runs like without a tune, we know it runs like poop once compared to a tuned machine.
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K9F
Well-known member
You have missed the point and assume incorrectly by the way my bike runs like shit.
I have no argument compared to a tuned machine the stock map will be inferior and the machine may not run as well as with a tune, but “runs like poop?” Really?
The case and point is this:
The FTR engine as the bike is in it’s first year of production and there are standard fuelling issues that people are acutely aware of. Indian are in no doubt also aware and will be working on a new map which will hopefully correct this? I do not know for sure!
There are people who may wish to actually keep their warranty intact?
Fact: Indian dealerships HAVE flagged VIN numbers and voided powertrain warranties as a result of aftermarket tunes. Fuel Moto included.
There is often a misconception and encouragement by people that in their pursuit of ‘performance perceptional nirvana’ aftermarket tunes will NOT invalidate Polaris Warranty. The warranty in the owners manual and posts on forums contradict this from people’s own experiences.
These tuning companies together with the blinkered people that advocate them that imply (often incorrectly) that their tunes are undetectable if you flash back to stock map should have the courage of their convictions to state so in writing and in the open as it is often on the base of them being undetectable that people will commit to buying one. False representation through rumour, conjecture and speculation.
IF Indian come up with an upgraded fuel map that is either programmed by a recall or on servicing there will be no point wasting money on a tune and running the reasonable risk of negating your warranty now, surely?
Maybe it is my ability to adapt riding style that negates any perceived shortcomings by others that my bike runs like shit! How do you know my bike runs like shit?
My bike my choices as with everyone else! My bike FYI does have it’s foibles that come with a stock map and these foibles are no different with the cat removed. My FTR ticks all my boxes exactly as it is and has the capability (warts ‘n’ all) to give me miles of smiles and has more capability if I was to wring the living daylights out of it than I could possibly handle! Live and let live and allow people to make their own unbiased life choices based on fact not fiction.
I have no argument compared to a tuned machine the stock map will be inferior and the machine may not run as well as with a tune, but “runs like poop?” Really?
The case and point is this:
The FTR engine as the bike is in it’s first year of production and there are standard fuelling issues that people are acutely aware of. Indian are in no doubt also aware and will be working on a new map which will hopefully correct this? I do not know for sure!
There are people who may wish to actually keep their warranty intact?
Fact: Indian dealerships HAVE flagged VIN numbers and voided powertrain warranties as a result of aftermarket tunes. Fuel Moto included.
There is often a misconception and encouragement by people that in their pursuit of ‘performance perceptional nirvana’ aftermarket tunes will NOT invalidate Polaris Warranty. The warranty in the owners manual and posts on forums contradict this from people’s own experiences.
These tuning companies together with the blinkered people that advocate them that imply (often incorrectly) that their tunes are undetectable if you flash back to stock map should have the courage of their convictions to state so in writing and in the open as it is often on the base of them being undetectable that people will commit to buying one. False representation through rumour, conjecture and speculation.
IF Indian come up with an upgraded fuel map that is either programmed by a recall or on servicing there will be no point wasting money on a tune and running the reasonable risk of negating your warranty now, surely?
Maybe it is my ability to adapt riding style that negates any perceived shortcomings by others that my bike runs like shit! How do you know my bike runs like shit?
My bike my choices as with everyone else! My bike FYI does have it’s foibles that come with a stock map and these foibles are no different with the cat removed. My FTR ticks all my boxes exactly as it is and has the capability (warts ‘n’ all) to give me miles of smiles and has more capability if I was to wring the living daylights out of it than I could possibly handle! Live and let live and allow people to make their own unbiased life choices based on fact not fiction.
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Even if Indian came out with a map to fix the cold stall issue. It wouldn’t fix the other issues or the mid range dip due to their epa restraints.
That example you found seems like an anomaly. As there are a few people with tuned ftrs who are having issues unrelated to the tune and dealing with their dealership and Indian. If the tune in fact voided the warranty Indian would have said tough luck already.
And really till you experience a ftr with a good tune your arguments are mute as you have no real world experience and are arguing with people who do, who knows for a fact it runs like poop stock. And almost every single journalist and owner agrees.
Either way. If op or any one else wants to go over 120 you need a tune.
/thread
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That example you found seems like an anomaly. As there are a few people with tuned ftrs who are having issues unrelated to the tune and dealing with their dealership and Indian. If the tune in fact voided the warranty Indian would have said tough luck already.
And really till you experience a ftr with a good tune your arguments are mute as you have no real world experience and are arguing with people who do, who knows for a fact it runs like poop stock. And almost every single journalist and owner agrees.
Either way. If op or any one else wants to go over 120 you need a tune.
/thread
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K9F
Well-known member
Agree Max but at what cost? This is NOT a functionality argument but a warranty one. Below is from April this year....Cut and paste from elsewhere. Bottom line if you want to retain your warranty don’t mess is all the point I am trying to make, not have a pissing contest how good tunes are over stock! I already how good they can be from previous experience FFS. The point again is still being missed...l hope this now gets laid to rest and clarifies warranty implications only? I myself like you am not overly concerned about warranty retention but there people who certainly are!!!
“Disturbing news regarding the Indian Motorcycle Engine Warranty was published in the Polaris Internal Bulletin. I followed it up with the Indian Motorcycle Melbourne Dealership (owned and managed by Polaris Australia) which has a direct channel to the Polaris HQ. The Melbourne Dealership has confirmed the following:
"Warranty:
If I had to speculate, this move was initiated by the Polaris USA. Here is a background story from another brand.
In the past, Harley-Davidson sold Screaming Eagle Pro tuners that could tune the engine properly as any aftermarket tuner could. Unfortunately, the EPA USA got wind of it, and Harley was smacked around repeatedly and tortured to an inch of its live. By the time the dust had settled, Harley was selling much less capable, watered down Screming Eagle tuner. Oh, and Harley was authorised to discourage their customers from fitting any 3rd party tuners and other performance parts. The solution was to void Harley-Davidson engine warranty. It was a win-win proposition. The EPA could stand tall and brag about their accomplishments to anyone who would listen, and Harley-Davidson was given the approval from the most powerful US government agency to void warranties at a drop of a hat, legally. The only losers are the American customers.
As far as I know, Harley-Davidson Australia does not void warranties for aftermarket slip-on pipes or air cleaners in Australia. However, I am sure MoCo AU will void engine warranty if a Harley was fitted with an aftermarket camshafts or a tuner. (EDIT: I have contacted Harley Heaven and they are recommending a 3rd party tuner when fitting Stage 2 (Cams), Stage 3 (Big Bore kit) and Stage 4 (Big Bore with Heads). If these kits were fitted by their dealership, custom dyno tuner and aftermarket pipes will NOT void HD warranty.)
Coming back to the Indian Motorcycles... I think many of us want to customise and individualise our steed. To restrict that enjoyment by limiting modifications to their own brand seems self-serving.
About 2.5 years ago, I had a chat with Lance (Head of the Warranty Department of Polaris Australia). At the time, he was happy with customers fitting aftermarket slip-on pipes. How times have changed.”
“Disturbing news regarding the Indian Motorcycle Engine Warranty was published in the Polaris Internal Bulletin. I followed it up with the Indian Motorcycle Melbourne Dealership (owned and managed by Polaris Australia) which has a direct channel to the Polaris HQ. The Melbourne Dealership has confirmed the following:
- The warranty (presumably 'engine warranty') is void if an Indian Motorcycle is equipped with an aftermarket exhaust pipe, even if it is a cat-back slip-on pipes. Only the OEM pipes and Stage 1 pipes will maintain Indian warranty.
- The warranty is void if the factory catalytic converter is modified or removed.
- The warranty is void if a non-genuine air cleaner or filter is fitted. Only the OEM air cleaner, Indian Stage 1 Air Cleaner and Indian High Flow Air Cleaner will maintain Indian warranty.
- The warranty is void if the ECU (Engine Control Unit) is flashed with an aftermarket tune or have aftermarket fuel controller (e.g. Power Commander & Power Vision CX).
- Above conditions impacts all Indian Motorcycles, Thunder Stroke 111ci as well as Scout 60ci and 69ci.
"Warranty:
- Installation of this kit does not void or change the warranty already associated with the motorcycle. The kit comes with its own 1-year warranty exclusive to the components in the kit only.
- Must be installed by an official Indian Motorcycle dealer with a trained technician to be eligible for the 1 year exclusive parts warranty.
- The use of the kit with aftermarket reflashed ECU’s and aftermarket fuel controllers will also void the kit warranty. Kit must be used with Stage 3 calibration
- Stage 1 kit must be currently installed or installed with the Stage 3 kit. Stage 3 kit cannot be used with stage 2 kit. If an engine has stage 2 kit fitted, then it must be removed when installing stage 3."
If I had to speculate, this move was initiated by the Polaris USA. Here is a background story from another brand.
In the past, Harley-Davidson sold Screaming Eagle Pro tuners that could tune the engine properly as any aftermarket tuner could. Unfortunately, the EPA USA got wind of it, and Harley was smacked around repeatedly and tortured to an inch of its live. By the time the dust had settled, Harley was selling much less capable, watered down Screming Eagle tuner. Oh, and Harley was authorised to discourage their customers from fitting any 3rd party tuners and other performance parts. The solution was to void Harley-Davidson engine warranty. It was a win-win proposition. The EPA could stand tall and brag about their accomplishments to anyone who would listen, and Harley-Davidson was given the approval from the most powerful US government agency to void warranties at a drop of a hat, legally. The only losers are the American customers.
As far as I know, Harley-Davidson Australia does not void warranties for aftermarket slip-on pipes or air cleaners in Australia. However, I am sure MoCo AU will void engine warranty if a Harley was fitted with an aftermarket camshafts or a tuner. (EDIT: I have contacted Harley Heaven and they are recommending a 3rd party tuner when fitting Stage 2 (Cams), Stage 3 (Big Bore kit) and Stage 4 (Big Bore with Heads). If these kits were fitted by their dealership, custom dyno tuner and aftermarket pipes will NOT void HD warranty.)
Coming back to the Indian Motorcycles... I think many of us want to customise and individualise our steed. To restrict that enjoyment by limiting modifications to their own brand seems self-serving.
About 2.5 years ago, I had a chat with Lance (Head of the Warranty Department of Polaris Australia). At the time, he was happy with customers fitting aftermarket slip-on pipes. How times have changed.”
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The hd issue is well know. Because they were voiding epa standards as a motorcycle brand by selling their own tuner. With independent tuners you get around that. Thus why almost all Polaris dealerships sell dyno jet tuners. Harley shops don’t.
Touching anything non oem on your bike “can” void the warranty, even a slip on or air filter if the dealer wants to be a prick. Doesn’t mean it will.
My local dealer who has three locations has been a Polaris/victory/Indian/slingshot dealer for 20 years. They said they have NEVER had a warranty issue on any of the Polaris products over the years. I’ll take their word for it.
This was the first thing I asked when I bought my bike, almost every employee at all the locations also have tunes on their ftrs, scout, big bikes, and offroad vehicles. From the owner down to the service manager down to the mechanic. Because they know Polaris tuning isn’t the best.
Ride an amazing running bike from day 1, or deal with its “quirks” for 2 years?
Touching anything non oem on your bike “can” void the warranty, even a slip on or air filter if the dealer wants to be a prick. Doesn’t mean it will.
My local dealer who has three locations has been a Polaris/victory/Indian/slingshot dealer for 20 years. They said they have NEVER had a warranty issue on any of the Polaris products over the years. I’ll take their word for it.
This was the first thing I asked when I bought my bike, almost every employee at all the locations also have tunes on their ftrs, scout, big bikes, and offroad vehicles. From the owner down to the service manager down to the mechanic. Because they know Polaris tuning isn’t the best.
Ride an amazing running bike from day 1, or deal with its “quirks” for 2 years?
K9F
Well-known member
I won’t be dealing with the quirks for two years as I agree with you and I deem my dealership to be an honourable one who will stand by his word too! Unfortunately like the OP’s dealership there are those that are less knowledgeable and would possibly find the lamest excuse to wriggle off the hook perhaps? There is also some great information from your side of the pond with reference to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act whereupon it must be proven that the aftermarket product caused the damage with regards to any warranty claim. The information regarding upgrades of any description and implications regarding warranty are crystal clear. I shall say this again “It is the relationship and understanding you have with your dealership that is of paramount importance.”As a bonus if you can get assurance in writing you are bulletproof!
Max Kool
Well-known member
I think it also depends on where you get your tune from. Some people start fiddling themselves not knowing what they’re actually doing. Yes that could ruin an engine (worst case).
However if you have a proper tune from the likes of Ryan or FM, the odds their tune ruining your bike is zilch. Dealers know this nowaday, though not all yet.
leave the cat in place, run a tune and your local MOT station won’t even see the difference...
My two cents
However if you have a proper tune from the likes of Ryan or FM, the odds their tune ruining your bike is zilch. Dealers know this nowaday, though not all yet.
leave the cat in place, run a tune and your local MOT station won’t even see the difference...
My two cents
passimakopoulos
Member
At the moment I'm satisfied with the bikes performance! I just want to hear the exhaust sound a bit more! That's all cause stock exhaust sucks and akrapovich as well in my opinion, no difference at all ( no offence to akrapovich owners?)
Also another thing to mention that I'm cind pissed of with the bike is the issue, that propably all of you know about, when the bike stays iddle the engine turns off out of a sudden!
That happend to me 2-3 times when the bike was cold and also after driving it for a couple of hours when having it on neutral gear another 2-3times the engine went off again. Went to the dealership 3 times so far. Did a reading and sending all the data to polaris and waiting for their answer what Th fk is going on..
Also another thing to mention that I'm cind pissed of with the bike is the issue, that propably all of you know about, when the bike stays iddle the engine turns off out of a sudden!
That happend to me 2-3 times when the bike was cold and also after driving it for a couple of hours when having it on neutral gear another 2-3times the engine went off again. Went to the dealership 3 times so far. Did a reading and sending all the data to polaris and waiting for their answer what Th fk is going on..
K9F
Well-known member
Agree with Max. The stalling does reduce with mileage but at present the only option to eradicate this is an aftermarket tune. An option I WILL eventually go for I hasten to add.
I went for Akrapovics on my non Race Replica S simply for build quality as the first generation of the black OEM exhausts where the exhaust hangar bracket only went as far as the upper pipe were prone to failure and splitting quite spectacularly if you ran with the cat removed. Indian corrected this with a second generation design of the OEM pipes where the exhaust hangar was welded across both upper and lower pipes. It was always my intention to remove the cat from the off. Nevertheless I was a little disappointed in the sound of the Akrapovics as you mentioned. For me removing the cat improved the sound quite a lot. I was initially going to go for baffle removal as well but with no readily available mapping options at that time, an impending 1,400 mile trip planned as soon as I was getting the bike together with mild OCD and the fact the dealership had no spare bungs at the time I left them in where they will probably remain now?
I went for Akrapovics on my non Race Replica S simply for build quality as the first generation of the black OEM exhausts where the exhaust hangar bracket only went as far as the upper pipe were prone to failure and splitting quite spectacularly if you ran with the cat removed. Indian corrected this with a second generation design of the OEM pipes where the exhaust hangar was welded across both upper and lower pipes. It was always my intention to remove the cat from the off. Nevertheless I was a little disappointed in the sound of the Akrapovics as you mentioned. For me removing the cat improved the sound quite a lot. I was initially going to go for baffle removal as well but with no readily available mapping options at that time, an impending 1,400 mile trip planned as soon as I was getting the bike together with mild OCD and the fact the dealership had no spare bungs at the time I left them in where they will probably remain now?
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passimakopoulos
Member
K9F
Well-known member
Hope you got the 20% off Black Friday deal? Over here they are more than double the price of the Akrapovics. Together with the FTR’s stablemate and the inordinate amount of money I have thrown at that with custom paint, stage II tuning, air ride suspension etc. etc. the list is endless and the fact both bikes are just for pleasure I need to err on the side of caution a little when it comes to lashing out the cash on the latest ‘must haves’ that I don’t really need!
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passimakopoulos
Member
No I haven't order them yet! A very good friend of mine will get them for me in Greece! He lives in NY..
I'm getting them fromFuel moto around 379 dollars
Plus 18 dollars for. Shipping
That's approximately 360 euros! If they where sold in Greece it would be 40%plus taxes and shipping expenses. I d guess aroun 950-1000 euros for sure!
When I first baught the HD iron 883 in Greece they charged me for the vance and hynce slip-on, fuel pack and filter 1700 euros! Bloody expensive!
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My dealer will not report mods to Indian in response to warranty issues because they are not a-holes.
Your results ( and dealer) may vary.
BTW, I had my dealer do a Ryan tune, as I became exasperated with the back and forth with Moto Fuel, in an attempt to clean up their maps.
In Moto Fuel's defense, their customer service is very good. They just do not have the magic with their (FTR) tunes, from my experience.
Your results ( and dealer) may vary.
BTW, I had my dealer do a Ryan tune, as I became exasperated with the back and forth with Moto Fuel, in an attempt to clean up their maps.
In Moto Fuel's defense, their customer service is very good. They just do not have the magic with their (FTR) tunes, from my experience.
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mark.lb
Well-known member
As Ferraiolo1 said my dealer also has a modified FTR RR sitting on the showroom floor right now. As you can see it has the stock catalytic converter removed and features a Bassani exhaust with a PV3 and tune sold with the bike. It also has some carbon fiber bits. I have heard this bike run. It is ridiculously loud. If you check the Bassani web site it clearly states “for race use only - this system is not emissions compliant.” I don’t know how this can be legal in the state of Pennsylvania. In PA all vehicle models manufactured with a catalytic converter can not be inspected if it is removed. It is possible the dealership will sell the bike with the stock Akrapovic system and CAT included. Come inspection time it could be swapped back to stock. I assume these exhaust modifications and tune also void the factory warrant. But I am not sure. I am very confused....To see this bike and price visit Pitt Cycles of Warrendale, PA on line and search new inventory.
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