The running thread for off topic discussions

[ferraiolo1]

Go find more than a couple cases where indian voided a warranty for use of a pv3. Most dealers even sell pv3s.
Several guys on here had running and Engine vibration issues with their bikes that were tuned. No issues with warranty when they took their bikes back to get worked on.

 

[cupcake_mike]

Go find more than a couple cases where indian voided a warranty for use of a pv3. Most dealers even sell pv3s.
Several guys on here had running and Engine vibration issues with their bikes that were tuned. No issues with warranty when they took their bikes back to get worked on.

I never said anyone's warranty would be voided, just to talk to your dealer and get it in writing. Its a relatively new model and there hasn't been a whole lot of time for major issues to really come up, so you have to be prepared for legal to try and fuck you, is all I'm saying.

 

[ferraiolo1]

Not just talking about the FTR, its any indian, the scout and the big bikes. Indian doesnt get Void happy with their warranties over tuning them.

 

[cupcake_mike]

Not just talking about the FTR, its any indian, the scout and the big bikes. Indian doesnt get Void happy with their warranties over tuning them.

Just talked to a buddy the other day who is a service adviser at a Indian dealer up north. He has a S model since they were first released, most of its life he's ran an aftermarket exhaust with a tune from lloyds on it, and put about 20k on his bike before he just recently had major catastrophic failure of a piston. His dealership hooked it up to the computer, per protocol, and saw the tune and corporate voided his warranty. He had a few other warranties issues since he has had it, but it wasn't anything related to the engine so they never said anything about his tune. So, all I say is beware, this guy will have to pay out the nose for this repair and he even works for Indian. Especially, since we seriously doubt the tune had anything to do with it, as most of the piston failures i've ever seen have to do with lean conditions and the tune should have fixed that. He's tried to do some fighting but he is worried that it might put his job in jeopardy if he pushes too hard.

 

[ferraiolo1]

Did he tune it back to stock before taking it back to the dealer? He would have almost been out of warranty anyway. How does a position just randomly go at 20k?

there are members on the other forum who have had their engine torn into with vibration issues. And it was tuned by fm and Lloyds. And just returned the bike back to the stock tune before taking it to the dealer. No issues with warranty.

 

[cupcake_mike]

No, he didn't revert to stock on his tune because whats the point? It is logged by the ecm that the tune has taken place. He purchased the extended warranty that covers it for an additional year, so he is about halfway through his warranty period.

I haven't seen it with my own eyes or via pics but what he describes was like the piston went brittle, little chunks of aluminum from the edge broke loose and lodged in the head holding a valve open. Same thing happened to me many years ago on a carb'd harley with about 25k, with no real issues leading up to it. Its a bit harder to tell if it was a lean issue since no computer was in place, and being a front cylinder, its less likely to have an overheating issue-the color of the spark plug looked great. Harley repaired it under warranty, wrote it off as a bad piston.

 

[ferraiolo1]

Because if it wasn’t tuned back to stock. The second the dealer tries to see what was wrong then can instantly see the tune and can’t work in in the ecm.



you ALWAYS tune your bike back to stock when ever you take it to the dealer.



same thing with cars.



Although i have my doubts, as its almost always some one who knows some one who had it done with little to no details. how long was the tune on the bike? what were the other mods? was he running it with no cat and no for a while? was he racing it? did he pull his plugs at 10k to inspect them? 20k in less than 2 years would put it at one of the highest mileage FTRs out there.



If Indian voided warranties that fast, do you not think there would be copious threads on all the forums and social media pages telling people to beware of Dynojet, Lloyds, and FM? I mean people complain about the dumbest stuff on here, but not that.



Anyway tell him to join the forum, show us pics and give us details to learn from..

 

[cupcake_mike]

Because if it wasn’t tuned back to stock. The second the dealer tries to see what was wrong then can instantly see the tune and can’t work in in the ecm.



you ALWAYS tune your bike back to stock when ever you take it to the dealer.



same thing with cars.



Although i have my doubts, as its almost always some one who knows some one who had it done with little to no details. how long was the tune on the bike? what were the other mods? was he running it with no cat and no for a while? was he racing it? did he pull his plugs at 10k to inspect them? 20k in less than 2 years would put it at one of the highest mileage FTRs out there.



If Indian voided warranties that fast, do you not think there would be copious threads on all the forums and social media pages telling people to beware of Dynojet, Lloyds, and FM? I mean people complain about the dumbest stuff on here, but not that.



Anyway tell him to join the forum, show us pics and give us details to learn from..

Maybe if I say it again you will understand, THERE IS NO POINT IN TAKING AN AFTERMARKET TUNE OFF OF AN FTR WHEN YOU TAKE IT IN TO THE DEALERSHIP AS IT IS RETAINED IN THE ECM'S MEMORY THAT IT HAD A TUNE AND CANNOT BE ERASED. A dynojet tune won't lock out the dealership anyway, they computer overrides all that shit.

I got nothing to prove to you, dude, and neither does my buddy. He's a service adviser at Indian and all the normal work/inspections had been done by the dealership. He did oil changes at 5k, plugs at 10k and had just recently had the valves checked as part of the 20k service. His bike has the cat removed and was tuned as such since right after he got it. He regularly rides at least 400 miles a week, some weeks 1000 miles. We have ridden together and done a couple 3-4 thousand mile weeks in the past. I don't know what you think is high mileage but I only ride about 7-8 months a year and easily put 25k (a year) between 3-4 bikes. For example, since 2/19 I've ridden 60k. He only owns the one bike so 12-15k a year isn't really anything unheard of.

I seriously doubt the tune or decat or any other mod he did fucked up the piston. He never tracked it, just spirited riding through the hills and twisties like anyone else. I never said Indian would void your warranty, just that they did his and unless you can get it in writing from your dealership you are taking that chance. Obviously, dynojet, lloyds, FM etc all realize tunes *could* end up causing a problem (or lead to one) and that's why every single one of them (and any other aftermarket tuner) says this is for "off-road" use only (along with the obvious EPA restrictions). It says right in your owners manual modifying the exhaust or tune *can* void your warranty, this isn't new information.

Everybody is more than welcome to do what they want with their expensive new bike I am just pointing out that they *could* be in for a headache is shit goes bad. None of the managers at my dealership (service, sales, parts and general manager) would not put their ass on the line by putting it in writing for me, that if I put a tune and aftermarket exhaust on my bike that Indian wouldn't void the warranty is my engine shit the bed. I even called the closest Lloyds approved remote tuning center, which is an independent shop and they confirmed that Indian would likely void me if I had the misfortune to suffer major engine damage with a tuned bike.

 

[Charliemurphay]

My reading of the Magnusson-Moss Warranty act is that the burden of proof is on Polaris to prove that the tune disintegrated his piston before they can void his warranty, BUT he’d likely have to take them to court over it and they probably have a higher legal fund than he does...and that doesn’t guarantee he’d win.

 

[cupcake_mike]

My reading of the Magnusson-Moss Warranty act is that the burden of proof is on Polaris to prove that the tune disintegrated his piston before they can void his warranty, BUT he’d likely have to take them to court over it and they probably have a higher legal fund than he does...and that doesn’t guarantee he’d win.

Exactly as i said in my first post, he probably could fight it but other than the obvious legal cost, he was worried about jeopardizing his job. Mike obviously gets some benefit by pushing a tune when responding to every other post on the subject. Now i don't know if it's a monetary benefit or just his strongly held opinion and i really don't care, I'm just making sure that everyone is aware that it *could* bite them in the ass one day, that's all.

 

[ferraiolo1]

I never said anyone has to "prove" anything.

When someone has a massive engine failure its nice to hear details to gain as much information as possible, instead of he said/she said talk.

Thats the whole purpose of forums. this is simply the first case, so it would be nice to get more information as to why a FTR engine ate itself.

And i wish i did, that would be nice, i just like suggesting a product that works and fixes the shitty OEM tuning issues.

 

[K9F]

This is like an oil thread, appears on forums frequently and the ensuing bunfight occurs! Below is simply a direct cut and paste from another thread from this forum I made quite a few months ago. Ultimately the voiding of warranties does happen due to aftermarket parts and tunes! I went ahead regardless with a tune in the end myself but I am acutely aware of ‘possible implications.’

Having just had my left knee replaced I have shit loads of time on my hands so I will respond, stick my head above the parapet and await the inevitable fallout from those that think they may know better?



Here's one from the other not FTR exclusive forum where the power train warranty has been flagged and voided. Punch in warranty denial in the search facility there's quite a lot of good information...….

"ok, so I have some info that I hope will save others headaches. first, my setup. I am running indian oem s1 ac slip ons and Indian s2 cams. I bought the pvcx in the winter and loaded up fm modified stage 2 tune without issue. the tune itself appears to be a nice improvement over indian flash. however, that's where the good news ends. after the first couple of rides I started getting a chassis fault light on my dash (2016 springfield). also a check engine code on my display. the chassis fault can mean any number of electrical issues, so as I was taking my scoot into the dealer for new handlebars I decided to have them check it out. I reflashed my indian s2 flash before taking the bike in.

we'll today I get a call from the dealer and his first question is what did you do to your calibration. he said that the error codes were generated with a different calibration that was currently on the bike. the error basically said throttle angle request not recognized. which means that the ecm was getting a signal from the fuel moto tune for a specific throttle blade opening but didn't know how to process the request. he could see all this through the digital wrench. he had no idea how to proceed because he was unable to clear the error code. at this point I had to tell him I had bought and installed a pvcx and was using a different calibration. he said he would have to contact indian as he had no way to clear the code.

well, he called a couple of hours later and informed me that the only way to clear the code was to download indian's new s2 calibration (just released this week) and that my vin has been entered into indian's database and my power train warranty was now void.

so, before anyone points this out, yes putting a tuner on your scoot will void your warranty. however, one of the considerations I put a lot of stock into was both dynojet's and fm's assertion that changes to the calibration can't be detected at the dealer level. this is obviously false. dj and fm need to now tell anyone still under warranty that if they have any issues requiring digital wrench interface they will be found out and their warranty will be voided. I take full responsibility for purchasing decisions regarding my scoot, but know this; once you install the pvcx, your warranty is effectively null and void. I have dealt with both fm and dj back in my hd days and found their work high quality. but frankly I don't appreciate being the victim of inaccurate info. I put this info out there to help others understand the full extent of the risk they take by installing the pvcx."

Moving on to the OP's issue.....

Does anybody actually take time to read the manual and/or the warranty exclusions?

Ultimately it is your bike, your choice. Many dealerships will offer tuning and customisation upgrades and take the responsibility themselves if anything goes wrong, repairs are carried out on the onus of the dealership not under warranty unless they deem they will get away with it perhaps or the fault is non related to any upgrades?

Be warned even reverting the map back to original for dealership purposes it will leave a footprint. Speak to your dealership first if you wish to retain your two not one year warranty. The relationship you have with your dealership is vitally important should you wish to change or upgrade exhaust and/or fuelling. Read into this what you will but everything is open to interpretation. Only you yourself can gauge the potential implications your modifications may have and if you wish to run the risk (however small) of trashing your warranty? The following are direct copies from the warranty section of MY manual regarding exclusions.....

Removal or puncturing of the muffler, baffles, header pipes or any other component which conducts exhaust gases.
Replacing any moving part of the vehicle, or parts of the exhaust system or intake system, with parts other than those specifically specified by the manufacturer.

The list of exclusions goes on and on and does include fuelling and computers...…...

Personally I will be getting a tune at some point. My dealership stated at the time I got my bike that removing the catalytic converter would NOT require a fuelling remap, I have covered 2,500 miles since. I have no doubt it would run better with one and it is on my list. With regards to fitting the S & S without a map I have no idea but your own dealership or perhaps Moore Speed Racing who strip new Indians and build customs with warranty may be able to advise further? But just fitting the S&S alone 'could' potentially compromise warranty if your dealership is an arse in which case you may as well buy the exhaust and the PVIII and just crack on, especially when they have already stated your warranty will be history with a map anyway? Chances are the exhaust alone will do the same and kick your warranty into touch.

 

[ferraiolo1]

Ill eat my crow,

i should have said "there slim chance of having your warranty voided" instead of "it wont void your warranty"

doing all the research on the interwebs before i tuned mine, the case K9 referenced, and one with a scout were the only two i found. I also talked to two dealerships before i tuned mine, both said they have never had a warranty voided due to a tune on a bike. One has several floor bikes with PV3s already installed on them. If my engine eats itself within the few months that i have a warranty left. Ill be sure to report back what happens. Ill be close to 15k by then.

Am also curious as to what valve clearance numbers he had and if he had to change the shimming at all. Im half tempted to check mine when i change my plugs in the next few weeks, i know the fz09 engines liked to eat their valve seats well before the suggested first check.

 

[mark.lb]

All the discussion of “tunes” - cat deletes - aftermarket exhausts aside, this is the first report of a catastrophic failure we have heard of on this forum. We are pushing 470 world wide members now. It looks to me Indian has developed a pretty reliable engine for the FTR. (One member had a nebulous vibration issue but my recollection is Indian gave him a new bike.) My only reluctance buying the FTR was it is a new model from a manufacturer I had not owned before. For me - so far so good. As our new bikes roll some miles on it will be interesting to follow any other mechanical issues that pop up. I expect there will be some. That is one of the reasons I participate in the forum.

 

[Charliemurphay]

All the discussion of “tunes” - cat deletes - aftermarket exhausts aside, this is the first report of a catastrophic failure we have heard of on this forum. We are pushing 470 world wide members now. It looks to me Indian has developed a pretty reliable engine for the FTR. (One member had a nebulous vibration issue but my recollection is Indian gave him a new bike.) My only reluctance buying the FTR was it is a new model from a manufacturer I had not owned before. For me - so far so good. As our new bikes roll some miles on it will be interesting to follow any other mechanical issues that pop up. I expect there will be some. That is one of the reasons I participate in the forum.

My understanding is that the FTR motor is basically a turnt-up Scout motor. If that’s the case the majority of the motor would already be a proven design as the Scout has been around for several years, no?

 

[ferraiolo1]

yes, which was derived from the victory octane engine.

 

[mark.lb]

They had to start somewhere but this engine is very different than a Scout engine. I consider it a new power plant.

“Lindaman explains that some of that win were in the choices that engineering made with the engine. While it’s clearly related to the engine in the Indian Scout, it is not a Scout engine. “It’s 80-percent new, with only 20-percent common,” Lindaman said. With the Scout, for a cruiser, visually bulking the engine up was required, with covers that added visual mass. For the FTR, it was opposite, and everyplace the Scout puffed outward, the FTR engine is sucked in. Even the crankcases are new; the Scout engine was too long for a sporting machine, with gearbox shafts all on a horizontal plane. Showing just how serious Indian is with the FTR, new crankcases were designed that restack the transmission shafts more vertically, allowing the wheelbase to be shortened down to 60 inches even with a longish swingarm. Where the Scout had multiple covers on the right side of the engine, the FTR engine has one, cast in magnesium. Rocker covers are in the light alloy as well, and the crankshaft is fully 10 pounds lighter, with much less flywheel effect than that of the Scout. All the hard work brought engine weight down to just 185 pounds—relatively heavy compared to a Ducati or KTM engine, but 40 pounds less than a Scout powerplant.”

 

[Charliemurphay]

They had to start somewhere but this engine is very different than a Scout engine. I consider it a new power plant.

“Lindaman explains that some of that win were in the choices that engineering made with the engine. While it’s clearly related to the engine in the Indian Scout, it is not a Scout engine. “It’s 80-percent new, with only 20-percent common,” Lindaman said. With the Scout, for a cruiser, visually bulking the engine up was required, with covers that added visual mass. For the FTR, it was opposite, and everyplace the Scout puffed outward, the FTR engine is sucked in. Even the crankcases are new; the Scout engine was too long for a sporting machine, with gearbox shafts all on a horizontal plane. Showing just how serious Indian is with the FTR, new crankcases were designed that restack the transmission shafts more vertically, allowing the wheelbase to be shortened down to 60 inches even with a longish swingarm. Where the Scout had multiple covers on the right side of the engine, the FTR engine has one, cast in magnesium. Rocker covers are in the light alloy as well, and the crankshaft is fully 10 pounds lighter, with much less flywheel effect than that of the Scout. All the hard work brought engine weight down to just 185 pounds—relatively heavy compared to a Ducati or KTM engine, but 40 pounds less than a Scout powerplant.”

Interesting read. Got a source link for this? Would like to read more.

 

[ferraiolo1]

If you go through the illustrated parts catalog on indians website, quite a few of the internal components are shared with the scout

 

[cupcake_mike]

Ill eat my crow,

i should have said "there slim chance of having your warranty voided" instead of "it wont void your warranty"

doing all the research on the interwebs before i tuned mine, the case K9 referenced, and one with a scout were the only two i found. I also talked to two dealerships before i tuned mine, both said they have never had a warranty voided due to a tune on a bike. One has several floor bikes with PV3s already installed on them. If my engine eats itself within the few months that i have a warranty left. Ill be sure to report back what happens. Ill be close to 15k by then.

Am also curious as to what valve clearance numbers he had and if he had to change the shimming at all. Im half tempted to check mine when i change my plugs in the next few weeks, i know the fz09 engines liked to eat their valve seats well before the suggested first check.

Believe it or not, I'm not trying to be contrary just for the sake of being contrary. My whole view on the matter is that there's likely a 99% chance that no issues will ever arise, but, if they do, then the owner might just end up getting screwed and you just won't know until it happens. Additionally, I would be very surprised if any of the "tuned from New" dealer bikes had any type of spec in the "factory paperwork" that showed these modifications were approved and covered, flat out in black and white. I'd imagine it would be the case you'd just have to trust the dealer to make it right if there were a problem and again, you never know how that goes down until it actually goes down. Personally, i have no problem with the factory tune, and frankly any slight hiccups I've noticed seem to have gone away (or I've just gotten used to them)-to me feel like they were mostly due to the newness of throttle by wire control (for me). The ecm definetly "learns" and the bike gets better over time. Personally, I've only had 2 cold start stalls and they happened within the first thousand miles. I think the bike is an absolute hoot and maybe that's because it's one of the higher performing bikes I've owned (I've owned a lot of bikes and the vast majority have been between 15 and 50 years old). Everyone's risk aversion is different and for me, since this is the first brand new bike I've ever owned, it's worth it to wait for mechanical mods like this until I'm out of warranty, for others that's not the case and that's OK too. Besides, it gives me something to look forward to, right?

Also, since indian is so historically vague about the numbers of specific models sold, as compared to other manufacturers, who really knows if our 500 or so members represent 10% or 1% or whatever percentage of FTRs in the wild?

Lastly, I'll end with another likely unpopular opinion, i think it is extremely irresponsible when the mod for a forum that serves people who all own bikes with warranties, answers every running type issue with the canned response "get a tune", without any disclaimer as such that makes it clear you are running the risk of voiding your warranty. I think we can all agree by the caliber of some of the questions asked on here, that some owners may not have any idea how it *could* all play out.